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 Universalists: The ear ticklers

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Historyb
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PostSubject: Re: Universalists: The ear ticklers   Mon Jan 14, 2013 10:59 pm

misszoolander wrote:
HistoryB,

I understand, and I will leave this forum respectfully, however before I go I will ask just a few questions to anyone who is willing to answer.

Please don't leave, Your doing fine. Asking questions are fine and you'll miss the debate between Hornoftruth and Lazurus.

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PostSubject: Re: Universalists: The ear ticklers   Mon Jan 14, 2013 11:04 pm

I respect your rules, and though have the belief of Universalism (not the Unitarian variety), I will not teach it here. On the other hand, it means I will not post again on this thread.

BTW, calling this sub-forum a "cults forum" when it is labeled externally as something else is misleading and dishonest.
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PostSubject: Re: Universalists: The ear ticklers   Mon Jan 14, 2013 11:05 pm

Thank you brothers,

"One perspective is brainwashing, Two perspectives is confusion, three can lead to knowledge"

Your perspectives are valuable to me Smile Now I will sit back and watch this debate Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Universalists: The ear ticklers   Mon Jan 14, 2013 11:20 pm

Lazarus,

Go ahead and make the opening statement.


It is important to me that we avoid verbiage and that we are focused, to the point and methodical. A careful, thorough discussion. Sound good?
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PostSubject: Re: Universalists: The ear ticklers   Mon Jan 14, 2013 11:39 pm

Lazarus Short wrote:


BTW, calling this sub-forum a "cults forum" when it is labeled externally as something else is misleading and dishonest.

Your right, I fixed it. Thank you.

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PostSubject: Re: Universalists: The ear ticklers   Mon Jan 14, 2013 11:40 pm

hornoftruth wrote:
Lazarus,

Go ahead and make the opening statement.


It is important to me that we avoid verbiage and that we are focused, to the point and methodical. A careful, thorough discussion. Sound good?

As soon as he PM me with agreement to the debate rules that you agreed to we will get the ball rolling Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Universalists: The ear ticklers   Mon Jan 14, 2013 11:57 pm

Okay, let us know when it starts and I assume you'll create a new thread just for the purpose of the debate.
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PostSubject: Re: Universalists: The ear ticklers   Tue Jan 15, 2013 12:16 am

Yes and a whole different sub forum Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Universalists: The ear ticklers   Tue Jan 15, 2013 12:46 am

While we are waiting can I give you a scenario I derived from a recent book I read. I read this when I believed in eternal separation from God. At the time I could not explain how I could share the good news if It was me in this scenario. I would be most grateful if anyone could tell me how they will handle such a situation.

DISCLAIMER: This is not to teach Universal Salvation, rather to see and explain how one confronts and explains the reality of death with a loved one.


"Picture yourself as a missionary to the Muslim nation of Senegal, West Africa. The date? September 26, 2002. About a year prior, you befriended your neighbor, Abdou Ndieye, a Muslim merchant. Only a few weeks ago, he graciously accepted your invitation to study the Bible with you. You are thrilled. Abdou is the first Muslim with whom you have begun sharing the Good News. Today you prepare to explore another portion of God‘s Word with him, but something terrible has happened. You cannot believe what you are hearing and seeing on the news. The Joola, a Senegalese ferry, has capsized killing almost 2,000 people. You remember that Abdou‘s wife, Astou, and his 14 year-old daughter, Fatou, are on that ship. You are in shock and cannot believe what you are seeing—a ship‘s underside sticking up out of the sea with helicopters hovering overhead. You hurry next door. As you knock on the door, you hear deep groans and wailing. You slowly enter. Abdou is prostrate on the floor. He pleads before Yalla (Wolof for Allah), “Why? Why? How could you let this happen?” He goes into spasms of weeping, beating his hands against the floor. Feeling utterly helpless, you pray, “God help me comfort my friend.” Abdou lifts his eyes, hardly able to recognize you for the tears. “My wife and daughter have died a terrible death! Tell me I will see them again; tell me they are safe in God‘s arms! Has your Jesus taken them to His heaven?” You are lost for words. The silence is deafening. “Answer me, Christian, will I see them again? Are they in a better place? Tell me!” You remain speechless. What can you say? Where is the Good News when you need it most?"

Although this is unlikely to be an everyday occurrence for us Christians as most of us live in the western world, Abdou represents a number of people, the single mum who has lost her baby, the alcoholic father who has lost his son, the corporate business man that lost his daughter, in fact Abdou represents every non believer of Christ. How can we reach these grieved, broken hearts friends? Your input is appreciated.
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PostSubject: Re: Universalists: The ear ticklers   Tue Jan 15, 2013 10:23 pm

misszoolander asked:
Quote :

Are we (Believers in Universal Reconciliation) destined to go to hell ourselves if we believe Jesus saved all (As in all will be eventually reconciled to God)?

Of course not. Truth is a person, not a doctrine. Jesus is Truth. Jesus saves, not doctrine.
Quote :

When I was a traditional Christian I use to take secret joy in picturing people in hell (such as Hitler, my high school bullies etc). I could picture them burning, and I honestly took joy in the fact they were going to burn forever and ever, In fact I even pictured them crying out to God, and God turning his back and refusing to listen to their cries. Is it wrong for me to think like this, and take pleasure in this?

Yes, indeed. But do not think yourself evil because of this, as I don't think you could feel such feelings while truly grasping the idea of unending punishment. The thought should strike fear and sorrow into our hearts. But, of course, Truth si not determined by our wants and desires.
Quote :

If it is wrong to think like this, then why? Why would taking joy in our enemies burning be wrong if it is what we believe will indeed happen, was planned to happen and is supposed to happen?

I believe that I will one day die. I do not want to die, though.

Do you see my point?
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PostSubject: Re: Universalists: The ear ticklers   Tue Jan 15, 2013 10:31 pm

JeffPS wrote:
1.) Since the Bible says that death shall not seperate us from the love of God,
why does man insist that Christ must be "accepted" before he dies to avoid torture for all eternity?

The Bible says that nothing can separate the BELIEVER from the love of God. Unbelief keeps man separated from his Maker.

Quote :

2.) Since death AND hell are cast into the lake of fire and thus have an
end. If hell has an end. how can humans continue to be tortured
eternally?

The Biblical evidence seems to suggest that unbelievers will be destroyed and cease to exist.

Quote :

3.) Why did John the Baptist say of Jesus - "There goes
the saviour of the world."? Was he right? Is Jesus the saviour of the
world? or are we humans going to redefine "the world" to mean about
5-10%?

Yes, Jesus is the saviour of the world, but eternal life is granted only to "whoesover believeth".
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PostSubject: Re: Universalists: The ear ticklers   Tue Jan 15, 2013 10:34 pm

Quote :
Does God want all men to be saved? Is it his will?

It is His desire. He also desires that we refrain from sin, yet He does not force us.
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PostSubject: Re: Universalists: The ear ticklers   Tue Jan 15, 2013 11:51 pm

misszoolander asked:

-Are we (Believers in Universal Reconciliation) destined to go to hell ourselves if we believe Jesus saved all (As in all will be eventually reconciled to God)?-

"Of course not. Truth is a person, not a doctrine. Jesus is Truth. Jesus saves, not doctrine."

I Could not agree more Truthofhorn. However does the doctrine of believing (in this life) Jesus died for us is what saves us? Or to put it simply, Jesus saved us?

-When I was a traditional Christian I use to take secret joy in picturing people in hell (such as Hitler, my high school bullies etc). I could picture them burning, and I honestly took joy in the fact they were going to burn forever and ever, In fact I even pictured them crying out to God, and God turning his back and refusing to listen to their cries. Is it wrong for me to think like this, and take pleasure in this?-

"Yes, indeed. But do not think yourself evil because of this, as I don't think you could feel such feelings while truly grasping the idea of unending punishment. The thought should strike fear and sorrow into our hearts. But, of course, Truth is not determined by our wants and desires."

Once again I agree, Hell should strike the heart of every man. Truth is not determined by our hearts and desires, but what of Gods? As Gods creation is it his will that some are forever lost? Is his will truth? As in omnipotent God does he subject himself to the will of man despite his desire/pleasure/will that all come unto repentance? I am unsure whether it is Gods will for us to sin full stop, it might be his will for us to sin IF it helps to accomplish his ultimate will example: Because of Judas's betrayal the scriptures were fulfilled, and we have Christ's atoning blood. This type of sin is sin that goes beyond even our own will, did Judas really have a choice when Satan entered him? Jesus told him " What you are about to do, do quickly," Is that a command from Jesus? To put it simply I believe it is Gods will that we do not live forever in sin, and that it is Gods will that we refrain from sin because of the consequences of sin and because ultimately it separates us from him. However we know that it is Gods will for sin to be abolished for good when the time comes. Is it wrong to think if sin itself is abolished, therefore the consequences of sin is abolished as well? Separation from God whether it is eternal or not is the consequence of sin.

-If it is wrong to think like this, then why? Why would taking joy in our enemies burning be wrong if it is what we believe will indeed happen, was planned to happen and is supposed to happen?-

"I believe that I will one day die. I do not want to die, though.

Do you see my point?"

I see your point truth, you believe sinners will go to hell, however you do not want them to go to hell, even so you must believe this as you believe this is Gods plan for all nonbelievers. i could go further, but I will respect the rules of this forum and restrict myself to asking questions mainly to get your point of view.

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PostSubject: Re: Universalists: The ear ticklers   Wed Jan 16, 2013 1:44 am

I am locking the topic, the person who started this is banned and he only started it to goad unviersalist into a fight and disrupt two forum

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