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 Universalists: The ear ticklers

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apocatastasis
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PostSubject: Re: Universalists: The ear ticklers   Mon Jan 14, 2013 3:26 am

Hansc wrote:


Quote :
"We believe the Bible," a gimmick handed down to us that functions as self deception.

Not sure what you mean, could you explain?

Just quote the entire sentence or two and it seems clear:

...the rule that I've tried to use is: Confine your confession of faith to the actual words God used to make His revelation known. Much has changed for me over the years because of this rule. It is very different from mouthing the words, "We believe the Bible," a gimmick handed down to us that functions as self deception.

The gimmickry is saying something not operative within yourself. You cannot believe something you don't know. You can believe something right that you heard from somebody else or realized within yourself, even something God told you; but, if you don't know what is or is not written it is impossible to "believe the Bible." In this case To believe yourself truthful when you say, "We believe the Bible" is to be deceived. Honesty is important for knowing the truth; but, it's not enough. Many people are sincerely wrong. The protection from deception is not honesty. It is truth.
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PostSubject: Re: Universalists: The ear ticklers   Mon Jan 14, 2013 3:47 am

Brother,
To imply that we are "sold" into this faith implies we have been mislead.
Our faith is in Christ our Lord, the cross that he bore for me, for you, for our enemies, for the world.

God wills everyone to be saved, and we have faith that this will be so, this is where our differences lie.

We do not come on here to attack, rather to love, as Christ loves. We are just spreading the "good news". What great hope we have that we shall all be with God, overflowing in his grace and majesty, all equal and free without sin.

Brother we do not long for streets of gold, rather to see us all in the abundant presence of Lord, our Savior. May God bless you all.
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apocatastasis
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PostSubject: Re: Universalists: The ear ticklers   Mon Jan 14, 2013 3:58 am

Hansc wrote:
apocatastasis wrote:
Historyb wrote:
A Warning: The teaching of Universalism will not be tolerated here at all.

I was PM'd to come to this site to discuss Re: Universalism, the ear tickler

Here's the exact quote:

[quote author=Brad link=action=profile;u=4418 date=1358099835]
http://apostolicchristian.forumotion.com/t153-universalists-the-ear-ticklers#1633

Hey, I wanted to bring this to your attention. I'd like to hear your thoughts.
Hansc wrote:

If all Brad wanted was to hear your thoughts, then why not just spell it out for him in the PM? It just seems to me that there is more to this.

Anyway, good your here.

Are you sold into the Universalist doctrine?
____________________________________________

I'm a moderator at tentmaker.org, a Christian Universalist web site. I clicked on the link he left in a PM there to get to this discussion.

Your last sentence, do you mean "sold on," "solid into," or, as you have it, "sold into?" I'm not sure what difference it makes. However far ranging our exchanges, I prefer to center on what is or is not written. That is, actual quotations of scripture or observations that something is not there.
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PostSubject: Re: Universalists: The ear ticklers   Mon Jan 14, 2013 10:26 am

1.) Since the Bible says that death shall not seperate us from the love of God,
why does man insist that Christ must be "accepted" before he dies to avoid torture for all eternity?
2.) Since death AND hell are cast into the lake of fire and thus have an end. If hell has an end. how can humans continue to be tortured eternally?
3.) Why did John the Baptist say of Jesus - "There goes the saviour of the world."? Was he right? Is Jesus the saviour of the world? or are we humans going to redefine "the world" to mean about 5-10%?


Last edited by JeffPS on Mon Jan 14, 2013 11:38 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Universalists: The ear ticklers   Mon Jan 14, 2013 10:38 am

Does God want all men to be saved? Is it his will?
"Who will have all men to be saved, and come unto the knowledge of the truth." KJV 1Tim. 2:4
Can man thwart the will of God? Whose will is stronger?
The will of God cannot be resisted. "He doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?" Dan. 4:35.
Who can resist a being of Almighty power? What God wills to take place, must take place. He wills the salvation of all men because it is right. A God of purity cannot desire endless sin and rebellion. If he wills the salvation of all men, he wills all the means by which it shall be accomplished; it must therefore take place.
God has no other will besides the will to save all men. "He is in one mind, and who can turn him." Job 23:13.
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PostSubject: Re: Universalists: The ear ticklers   Mon Jan 14, 2013 11:43 am

If God is not doing the torturing in hell, who is?
If God IS doing the torturing in hell, what is the purpose?
Will one of the tortured turn and say "I believe" when it will not help?
God is a just God. Is it just for a person to pay for a finite number of sins throughout all eternity?
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Hansc
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PostSubject: Re: Universalists: The ear ticklers   Mon Jan 14, 2013 12:44 pm

Apo.

Quote :
Your last sentence, do you mean "sold on," "solid into," or, as you have it, "sold into?" I'm not sure what difference it makes.

It probably doesn't make a difference.

Quote :
I'm a moderator at tentmaker.org, a Christian Universalist web site. I clicked on the link he left in a PM there to get to this discussion.

I have to run and don't have time now, but later when I get back, I have an interesting story for you.

Is Brad a member at Tentmaker? I am, I joined Tentmaker around two years ago. I'm also guessing that "Brad" is a fairly new person at your site?

Anyway, we can talk when I come back.


Last edited by Hansc on Mon Jan 14, 2013 1:11 pm; edited 3 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: Universalists: The ear ticklers   Mon Jan 14, 2013 12:47 pm

Ms. Zoo

Quote :
To imply that we are "sold" into this faith implies we have been mislead.

Maybe I put it poorly, but the term "buy into" or they "bought what we said" is common. I do not mean to imply that you have been mislead, but rather
to explicitly state it. Yes, I do believe you have been mislead.
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PostSubject: Re: Universalists: The ear ticklers   Mon Jan 14, 2013 3:05 pm

Just suppose... You really truly love someone. They don't even realize that they are their child. They continually reject your professions and acts of love toward them. Finally, they scream at you, "I HATE you! Leave me alone! I never want to see you again."
Do you:
A. Give up - even though "Love NEVER fails?
B. Continue to love that person because You've been commanded to "love your enemies" and that even pagans love those that love them.
C. Call a psychotic and pay them to kidnap the person and keep them locked up in a basement torturing them on an hourly basis?
D. Show them who you really are and reveal to them that they are your child and let them see the total truth of your love for them.
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PostSubject: Re: Universalists: The ear ticklers   Mon Jan 14, 2013 4:30 pm

Hansc,
I appreciate your view on my faith, Do you mind if I share my Testimony?

See when I first came across this revelation I was dumbfounded. Infact I was angry, this can not be true! But after reading my bible, praying and asking God he showed me scriptures in the bible I could not refute - "As in Adam all die, even so In Christ all shall be made alive" . Scripture after scripture I came across, BUT still I was not sure. I studied the Greek and Hebrew words aion, aionas, Ghenna, Tatrus etc and that itself revealed a new revelation, But still I was not sure.

It was not until I found myself in tears, so frustrated from figuring out what is false and what is true, I decided that I will make a choice, I will choose the "wide gate" because it is easier. Believing in hell is way easier, I will not get excluded and people will not think I am a Heretic. I will not have to study the bible, I will just listen to what my pastors at Church tell me.

And the truth came to me in the form of conviction. Bam! In a few seconds I felt the conviction of our Lord. "Does this Glorify me?" WOW. Man did I weep, how foolish I was! To put my faith in fire assurance, to idolize heaven. I realised I loved the destination OVER the Creator. I loved tradition Over faith.
I realised that most of my faith was built on sand, this "I will believe so I do not go to hell" sandy foundation got swept away by the power of the Lords conviction.

Christ is my cornerstone now, my faith lies in him, not where he will send me after death, but him alone. I shall pick up my cross as he has done, I shall follow my Shepard, I shall love others and I shall spread the good news.

"in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, in the last trumpet, for it shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we -- we shall be changed:" Corth:15:52

"where, O Death, thy sting? where, O Hades, thy victory?'' Corth 15:55

To make things clear brother, I was not sold into this faith, more convicted into it. Convictions from God are worth the same as his blessings, because of his convictions we are revealed closer and closer to his truth.

Praise Jesus he has delivered us! Smile


Last edited by misszoolander on Mon Jan 14, 2013 5:32 pm; edited 2 times in total
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hornoftruth
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PostSubject: Re: Universalists: The ear ticklers   Mon Jan 14, 2013 5:22 pm

Which of our Universalists brothers (or sisters) wants to engage me in a one-on-one debate in the debate forum?
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PostSubject: Re: Universalists: The ear ticklers   Mon Jan 14, 2013 5:30 pm

Well, I said I was willing, and am checking in as promised. How do we start? Which Bible version or translation will we agree on using? I favor the Ferrar Fenton Version.
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hornoftruth
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PostSubject: Re: Universalists: The ear ticklers   Mon Jan 14, 2013 5:32 pm

Lazarus Short wrote:
Well, I said I was willing, and am checking in as promised. How do we start? Which Bible version or translation will we agree on using? I favor the Ferrar Fenton Version.

OK. LEt me get HistoryB to set it up.
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misszoolander
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PostSubject: Re: Universalists: The ear ticklers   Mon Jan 14, 2013 5:34 pm

I am willing too, However it does not seem fair two against one, unless you require another person that shares your view I will sit back Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Universalists: The ear ticklers   Mon Jan 14, 2013 7:18 pm

misszoolander wrote:
Hansc,
I appreciate your view on my faith, Do you mind if I share my Testimony?

See when I first came across this revelation I was dumbfounded. Infact I was angry, this can not be true! But after reading my bible, praying and asking God he showed me scriptures in the bible I could not refute - "As in Adam all die, even so In Christ all shall be made alive" . Scripture after scripture I came across, BUT still I was not sure. I studied the Greek and Hebrew words aion, aionas, Ghenna, Tatrus etc and that itself revealed a new revelation, But still I was not sure.

It was not until I found myself in tears, so frustrated from figuring out what is false and what is true, I decided that I will make a choice, I will choose the "wide gate" because it is easier. Believing in hell is way easier, I will not get excluded and people will not think I am a Heretic. I will not have to study the bible, I will just listen to what my pastors at Church tell me.

And the truth came to me in the form of conviction. Bam! In a few seconds I felt the conviction of our Lord. "Does this Glorify me?" WOW. Man did I weep, how foolish I was! To put my faith in fire assurance, to idolize heaven. I realised I loved the destination OVER the Creator. I loved tradition Over faith.
I realised that most of my faith was built on sand, this "I will believe so I do not go to hell" sandy foundation got swept away by the power of the Lords conviction.

Christ is my cornerstone now, my faith lies in him, not where he will send me after death, but him alone. I shall pick up my cross as he has done, I shall follow my Shepard, I shall love others and I shall spread the good news.

"in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, in the last trumpet, for it shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we -- we shall be changed:" Corth:15:52

"where, O Death, thy sting? where, O Hades, thy victory?'' Corth 15:55

To make things clear brother, I was not sold into this faith, more convicted into it. Convictions from God are worth the same as his blessings, because of his convictions we are revealed closer and closer to his truth.

Praise Jesus he has delivered us! Smile

Ms.Zoo, As a member of Tentmaker, I have read over your views and understand why you believe what you believe. However, I believe you are mistaken in your understanding of the Scriptures. At Tentmaker, I created the thread Book of Life and none of the members could line up their religious ideology with the Biblical presentation of how it works.

Although Jabcat is closest to realizing what is currently going on, he has not yet realized the extent of it.

We will see where this leads.
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PostSubject: Re: Universalists: The ear ticklers   Mon Jan 14, 2013 7:21 pm

misszoolander wrote:
I am willing too, However it does not seem fair two against one, unless you require another person that shares your view I will sit back Smile

I'll watch too, you realize that when I created the Book of Life thread at Tentmaker it was one against many. Yet, still, the questions that the Book of Life raises in contrast to the universalist ideology have not been adequately addressed.
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PostSubject: Re: Universalists: The ear ticklers   Mon Jan 14, 2013 7:26 pm

apocatastasis wrote:


I'm a moderator at tentmaker.org, a Christian Universalist web site. I clicked on the link he left in a PM there to get to this discussion.


You should talk this over with Jabcat and ask yourself if you want these two sites to take another lap around the same mountain. There is more here than you realize, hopefully, some of this will soon come to light.
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PostSubject: Re: Universalists: The ear ticklers   Mon Jan 14, 2013 7:59 pm

Hansc, Are you "pneuma" in tentmaker?

I have not come across this post of yours, (might have skimmed over it, but I do not remember) However I think i have found it if you are indeed pneuma.

Oh yes, I might be mistaken in some scriptures - The Parable of Lazarus and the rich man I truly did not understand for years!

The thing is, I wasn't put here on Earth to break down the scriptures, master in theology, understand every single thing there is to understand about God, how could me a mere human being even BEGIN to explain God. I believe that people that claim to have all the answers are really but scratching the surface. No, we can not claim what only Jesus can claim, we must only claim his grace, his love, his mercy and apply this to ourselves.

I am free to discuss with my fellow brothers and sisters in Christ, I am free to ask questions, as long as Christ is my rock, nothing else, including doctrine will separate me from the truth. With UR I have to make sure that it is still Jesus and what he did for us that I focus on, not basing my whole life on this revelation, rather basing my life/hope/love on Jesus.

I am put here to bear his witness, to experience his love. I am put here to glorify him.

Someday maybe I will become an expert in the scriptures, however God has planted the seed of hunger, I hunger for the truth in scriptures, Every time I come across something that challenges me, I rest In God, ask him to reveal to me what his will is regarding the certain scripture. In the stillness of God we shall find answers.

"And it is when you remind me
or even disrupt me into stillness
that I stop hearing my voice
and can be awed by yours-
in the fluttering of the breeze
in the song of the bird
in the touch of a loved one
in the peace of the absence of the cacaphony
of all of the world's doing

Lord, remind me to be sated with every moment you provide
To turn off my busy-ness
and see your hands at work in all that surrounds me.
Only then can I listen for how you want me to live out my being
as your child.

Help me to remember that your greatest desire
is for my heart to beat with yours
for me to listen to see whether we are in sync
and to reflect on this first
Help me in all that I think, say and do
to then reflect not who I am
but who you are-
You are God.
You are."

So brother, please do not disregard me as false, misled just because my knowledge is not up to par to yours, "but the foolish things of the world did God choose, that the wise He may put to shame; and the weak things of the world did God choose that He may put to shame the strong;"

God can use even the "foolish", I would rather be seen as a fool to man, then a fool to God.

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PostSubject: Re: Universalists: The ear ticklers   Mon Jan 14, 2013 8:56 pm

Ms. Zoo

Quote :
Hansc, Are you "pneuma" in tentmaker?

I think for now, more is going on than you think. I go by HansC at Tentmaker, but haven't been there for some time. (except very recently and that just talk with the mods)
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PostSubject: Re: Universalists: The ear ticklers   Mon Jan 14, 2013 9:12 pm

Hansc,
what you said "I think for now, more is going on than you think" is something I cannot deny.

I pray that I will continue to grow, and learn in Christ.

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PostSubject: Re: Universalists: The ear ticklers   Mon Jan 14, 2013 9:22 pm

Anyway, if Hornoftruth and somebody want to debate, I'm willing to shut up and watch.
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PostSubject: Re: Universalists: The ear ticklers   Mon Jan 14, 2013 9:23 pm

Warning: Even though this is now in the cults forum, you may not teach any view of universalism. At this point forward any post that is not ask or clarifying will be considered teaching and will be deleted.

I welcome people to post but if you have the belief of Universalism, you can not teach it here.

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hornoftruth
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PostSubject: Re: Universalists: The ear ticklers   Mon Jan 14, 2013 10:22 pm

Lazarus Short wrote:
Well, I said I was willing, and am checking in as promised. How do we start? Which Bible version or translation will we agree on using? I favor the Ferrar Fenton Version.

We need not use one translation. Ultimately, we should depend on no single translation.
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PostSubject: Re: Universalists: The ear ticklers   Mon Jan 14, 2013 10:35 pm

HistoryB,

I understand, and I will leave this forum respectfully, however before I go I will ask just a few questions to anyone who is willing to answer.

Are we (Believers in Universal Reconciliation) destined to go to hell ourselves if we believe Jesus saved all (As in all will be eventually reconciled to God)?

When I was a traditional Christian I use to take secret joy in picturing people in hell (such as Hitler, my high school bullies etc). I could picture them burning, and I honestly took joy in the fact they were going to burn forever and ever, In fact I even pictured them crying out to God, and God turning his back and refusing to listen to their cries. Is it wrong for me to think like this, and take pleasure in this?

If it is wrong to think like this, then why? Why would taking joy in our enemies burning be wrong if it is what we believe will indeed happen, was planned to happen and is supposed to happen?

If it is not wrong, why does my conscious seem unable to rest on the subject?After picturing my enemies burning I often use to, (irony) burn with shame. Back then I never knew why. Even picturing Hitler burning forever, with no hope, nothing to relieve himself, no hope whatsoever, my compassion stretches out to him. I could only bask in the joy for a short time, once my consciousness sunk into the horrors of hell fire I felt ashamed of myself, for wishing anyone to be there.

Thank you for considering my queries.

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PostSubject: Re: Universalists: The ear ticklers   Mon Jan 14, 2013 10:50 pm

I think it would be a shame for you to leave, misszoo. You do ask thought-provoking questions. I don't agree with your belief in universal salvation, but I think you add something good to the forum.
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