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 Universalists: The ear ticklers

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hornoftruth
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PostSubject: Re: Universalists: The ear ticklers   Sun Jan 13, 2013 10:38 pm

Historyb wrote:
He can make his case in this thread alone, no other thread

Cool. Thanks. I have done quite a bit of research into this topic since the last time the Universalists attacked CWS.
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PostSubject: Re: Universalists: The ear ticklers   Sun Jan 13, 2013 11:03 pm

HistoryB, if it's ok with you, I'd like to have a one-on-one debate with Lazarus Short if he agrees to it.
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PostSubject: Re: Universalists: The ear ticklers   Sun Jan 13, 2013 11:27 pm

Sure that would be great. If he agrees to it and the rules you both make up I will put you both in the debate group. It should be great Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Universalists: The ear ticklers   Sun Jan 13, 2013 11:32 pm

Hello brothers and sisters in Christ,

Before I add my two cents I pray that God will be with us in this discussion, I pray for your blessings God over each and every single one of us. May your will be revealed not ours.

Now for my two cents.. I would like to discuss freewill.

Is our freewill really what we think it is? I do not believe so.
We are slaves to sin in this life, because of Adam. Sin affects our core, when we submit ourselves to Christ the sin becomes easier to turn away from, but because of our carnal flesh and soul we are not completely free from sinning.

Our will is bound to sinning, is this truly freewill?
Is our corrupted view of freewill stronger then Gods will?

Thank you for considering my views.

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PostSubject: Re: Universalists: The ear ticklers   Sun Jan 13, 2013 11:37 pm

misszoolander,

One thing is certain:

God asks to choose whom we will serve. I don't think this invitation is a farce, do you? If we choose to reject God, we will pay for it in Hell.
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PostSubject: Re: Universalists: The ear ticklers   Sun Jan 13, 2013 11:43 pm

Also, if we can please consider this as well,

If God is impartial, and his love ever enduring why would he submit himself to refusing to save his children from eternal hell fire? God is about himself, everything was made to glorify him. To be separated from God is a sin in itself, why would God allow sin to continue forever? Does people burning in hell, wallowing in misery forever glorify God? Or does corrective punishment and everyone choosing God at the end of time Glorify him? We can not assume man will choose hell over God, to say such a thing would make God seem small! Imagine after death coming face to face with the creator of the universe, how could you deny that? How could you deny truth?

I have not read Rob bell's book "Love wins" I came across the blessed hope by the having to face the reality of death. I have heard the Rob's book asks the questions but does not seem to answer them, there are plenty of answers in the bible, if we put our hope in Jesus, and ask him to reveal the truth to us, then maybe we can let go of tradition. This is the ONLY way, you can read dozens, hundreds of books, but without the holy spirit, without Jesus you will only be led down a road of confusion.

Jesus told us "Ask in my name and you shall receive" What does Jesus's name represent? Truth, love, grace, mercy and justified justice. Ask for these things and he will not lead you down false paths, ask in his name for the truth, and Jesus will set you free.
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PostSubject: Re: Universalists: The ear ticklers   Sun Jan 13, 2013 11:48 pm

No universalism teaching allowed, lazurus has a special exemption. Thank you

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PostSubject: Re: Universalists: The ear ticklers   Sun Jan 13, 2013 11:52 pm

Lazarus Short wrote:
I don't know whether to think I opened up a can of worms, or whacked the hornet's nest!

Hopefully just the can of worms. Wink
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PostSubject: Re: Universalists: The ear ticklers   Sun Jan 13, 2013 11:53 pm

Thank you hornoftruth for your answer,

Yes, many will reject God in this life time, but is it wrong to even think that man will not choose God in the next lifetime?

See Paul tells us to pray that all will be saved, and come unto repentance.
Do we pray this today? Logically if we believe in Eternal torment it would be silly to pray this prayer, does this mean we doubt Jesus when we refuse to pray for this?

The invitation of Jesus's cross is indeed a blessing! Life is certainly a lot easier and bearable with him then without him. I guess the difference is brother I do not worship God out of fear anymore, I worship him out of love, because I fully understand his plan, that he is in control, that he loves us so much that he sent his only son down to taste death for us all. Nothing surprises God, everything is incorporated into his will ie: Judas. Our God is truly the beginning and the end.

Unlike Bell I believe its not about whether love wins, its whether Jesus wins. Jesus WILL win.
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PostSubject: Re: Universalists: The ear ticklers   Sun Jan 13, 2013 11:54 pm

misszoo,
Quote :

If God is impartial, and his love ever enduring why would he submit himself to refusing to save his children from eternal hell fire?

It's not his refusal which keeps people in Hell. It is the sinner's refusal.
Quote :

God is about himself, everything was made to glorify him. To be separated from God is a sin in itself, why would God allow sin to continue forever?

Separation from God is a result of sin, not a sin itself.
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PostSubject: Re: Universalists: The ear ticklers   Sun Jan 13, 2013 11:54 pm

Zoo asked

Quote :
why would he submit himself to refusing to save his children from eternal hell fire?

His children don't go to Hell.

That is the destination for the children of wrath.

Quote :
many will reject God in this life time, but is it wrong to even think that man will not choose God in the next lifetime?

Yes, because it is contrary to the revealed Word.
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PostSubject: Re: Universalists: The ear ticklers   Sun Jan 13, 2013 11:56 pm

Sorry I apologize,

I thought I was welcome here, I am not here to force a teaching, rather to express why I believe the way I do.

Sorry once again,

May God bless you all Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Universalists: The ear ticklers   Sun Jan 13, 2013 11:58 pm

Zoo stated

Quote :
Logically if we believe in Eternal torment it would be silly to pray this prayer

Not really, many are not saved and are in danger of being lost if they slip away before receiving Christ.
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PostSubject: Re: Universalists: The ear ticklers   Mon Jan 14, 2013 12:00 am

Misszoo,

Would you be interested in a one-on-one debate with me on this subject?

misszoolander wrote:
Sorry I apologize,

I thought I was welcome here, I am not here to force a teaching, rather to express why I believe the way I do.

Sorry once again,

May God bless you all Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Universalists: The ear ticklers   Mon Jan 14, 2013 12:05 am

misszoolander wrote:
Sorry I apologize,

I thought I was welcome here, I am not here to force a teaching, rather to express why I believe the way I do.

Sorry once again,

May God bless you all Smile

You are. We just don't want the teaching here, questions are great. As long as you don't teach universalism your fine Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Universalists: The ear ticklers   Mon Jan 14, 2013 12:09 am

Lazarus Short,

You are right, part of my response came across as wanting to find fault. I apologize. If I understand correct, most of what you are getting at is based within this:


I think you read too much into “goodness” and
“goodly.” Anyway, show logically
just how God can be all-in-all, when much of that “all” is lost/dead/in
Hell.
It makes no sense to me.



Consider this, that the damned do continue to exist. They are "dead" in every sense that matters, but they are also immortal souls and very much in existence. Their existence is apart from God, not because He willed it so, but because they chose so. They chose to not receive sanctifying grace, or threw it away for love of self. It would be contrary to God's Nature to force them to be with Him, yet they still exist...and their existence is one apart from God...Hell. And I can't imagine hell being in any way comfortable or tolerable...even the demons preferred to invade the heard of swine that to go back. As well, even as our bodies need food, and not having it, they suffer and eventually die...so the soul needs God's grace, and having it, suffers, but cannot die.


I would recommend you read the very book I am currently reading. I think it will give you good insight and be better able understand the "who and what" of God and see how it can't make sense for there not to be a place for those who reject God...and simultaneously, He can still be all-in-all, so to speak. The book is "Theology for beginners" by Frank Sheed. It's a very short book, but very deep. There is a more in-depth volume that follows it.


Last edited by ahs on Mon Jan 14, 2013 12:11 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Universalists: The ear ticklers   Mon Jan 14, 2013 12:10 am

Thank you for the invitation Hornoftruth,

Yes I would love too, however I ask that we respect each other, as debates can often lead to personal attacks, the reason for our debate is for truth, which is what every human being seeks. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Universalists: The ear ticklers   Mon Jan 14, 2013 12:32 am

Truthofhorn,

If you would be so kind as to post a link to this debate that would be great

Cheers!
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PostSubject: Re: Universalists: The ear ticklers   Mon Jan 14, 2013 1:48 am

I'll check in tomorrow to see how you want to proceed.
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PostSubject: Re: Universalists: The ear ticklers   Mon Jan 14, 2013 2:36 am

Maybe I'm a bit naive, but why is everyone so scared of someone talking about universalism? I'm confident enough in my faith and walk with Jesus that someone talking about a weird, miniscule belief doesn't bother me. I don't care if people discuss mormonism, evolution, homosexuality, or geocentrism. I won't be talked into being in a cult and all they do is make themselves look foolish.
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PostSubject: Re: Universalists: The ear ticklers   Mon Jan 14, 2013 2:50 am

I'm not sure I want to commit myself to all the hard work for hours and hours that this discussion generates. Only one or two against some "gang of forty?" Having so engaged to varying degrees for years it becomes off-putting to expose the same false assumptions, answer the same questions, to just keep covering the same ground over and over. In part it is as if no one has learned to read a Bible Dictionary or an Encyclopedia (like McClintock & Strong's Cyclopedia of Biblical, Theological and Ecclesiastical Literature -- for which copy and paste into web browser:)
http://www.bibleanalyzer.com/shop/en/63-mcclintock-strong-s-cyclopedia.html ($12 here)
http://www.discountbible.com/bible-study-software/a-cls2.html ($10 here)

I've seen or have a number of books or parts of books that promote reliance on scripture for faith and practice. Yet, none of them explain how to implement this "authority" of the Bible they defend. First is concordances. (Once I got on to this I wondered why none of the many steeple houses I've attended taught us how and why to use concordances.) There is no authority to be implemented if you don't know what scripture says or does not say. Who is capable of attaining such knowledge? This is why we use concordances. It is not about possible interpretations of passages, whatever God meant to say. He either said or did not say the statements at hand. For important matters this should be verified in the original languages. While not perfectly granting success in determining what to believe, the rule that I've tried to use is: Confine your confession of faith to the actual words God used to make His revelation known. Much has changed for me over the years because of this rule. It is very different from mouthing the words, "We believe the Bible," a gimmick handed down to us that functions as self deception.

In all my life I've met knowingly only a couple believers that became that by way of someone taking the time to answer all their objections to God and to the elements of The Faith. Something else is happening. The significant issue of believing the Truth is controlled not so much by facts as by spiritual forces. Can you judge yourself, what's going on inside of you? How much is assumed knowledge without being proven in personal study? How much is anger? What I don't know that I don't know is much more than what I think I don't know and what I think I know combined. Am I able to maintain an appropriate level of humility that corresponds with such lack of knowledge? Much of our awareness or lack of it is conditioned by what functions as authority in our lives. Relationships very much affect our ability to know. Ultimately it is up to God. The immature fishes taken in the dragnet were thrown back.


Now, if our evangel is covered, also,
it is covered in those who are perishing,
in whom the god of this eon blinds the
apprehensions of the unbelieving so that
the illumination of the evangel of the glory
of Christ, Who is the Image of the invisible God,
does not irradiate them. (2 Co 4:3-4, Conc. Lit.)
To mature beyond a high form of an animal, cunning and strong, there must be a change of headship. It's like one set of nerves to our head must be severed and those with a different life from another head must be in their place. We go on alone, slowed in our transformation because there is no many-membered corporate ministry one to another.

When we cannot participate in what should be our gathering for spiritual development and must function instead as either part of an audience enabling the preacher or being that preacher, usually without ever considering whether to meet without human headship, where then shall we develop that headship of Christ in our individual lives? We also have never learned to implement the authority of the Bible. We are stuck instead in the traditions of men, their authority determining orthodoxy and orthopraxy for us. How will we answer to God for ridding ourselves of the conscience He gave us, submitting instead to some man or group of men? Because of these things so many otherwise good people are spiritually withered and nearly functionless, like early abortions that shouldn't have lived but go on anyway as tragic deformed revenants and zombie hordes.


Last edited by apocatastasis on Mon Jan 14, 2013 2:58 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Universalists: The ear ticklers   Mon Jan 14, 2013 2:56 am

Kingfisher wrote:
Maybe I'm a bit naive, but why is everyone so scared of someone talking about universalism? I'm confident enough in my faith and walk with Jesus that someone talking about a weird, miniscule belief doesn't bother me. I don't care if people discuss mormonism, evolution, homosexuality, or geocentrism. I won't be talked into being in a cult and all they do is make themselves look foolish.

I don't know that anyone is afraid of it. I see no evidence of that. Sometimes though, people of this persuasion will invite others of a similar outlook to come over and it can very nearly swamp some smaller forums with one topic which then gets thrashed around to the exclusion of all else.

A situation like this happened a while back at CWS (most people here were members of CWS). It got to the point were with the mass influx of universalist helpers that it ended up for a while being the only topic.

I ended up joining the Universalist forum and taking the discussion to their site, and it actually ended up defusing the situation between our two forums. We do discuss matters, and are not afraid of controversy.
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PostSubject: Re: Universalists: The ear ticklers   Mon Jan 14, 2013 3:05 am


Quote :
For important matters this should be verified in the original languages
.

Certainly, the original languages are important, but what "important matter" do you know, that cannot be clearly spelled out in English?

Which of these important matters if spelled out in English do you believe someone would get a wrong idea, if they didn't check the original language?

Quote :
Much has changed for me over the years because of this rule.

Such as?

Quote :
"We believe the Bible," a gimmick handed down to us that functions as self deception.

Not sure what you mean, could you explain?
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PostSubject: Re: Universalists: The ear ticklers   Mon Jan 14, 2013 3:16 am

Historyb wrote:
A Warning: The teaching of Universalism will not be tolerated here at all.

I was PM'd to come to this site to discuss Re: Universalism, the ear tickler

Here's the exact quote:

[quote author=Brad link=action=profile;u=4418 date=1358099835]
http://apostolicchristian.forumotion.com/t153-universalists-the-ear-ticklers#1633

Hey, I wanted to bring this to your attention. I'd like to hear your thoughts.
[/quote]
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PostSubject: Re: Universalists: The ear ticklers   Mon Jan 14, 2013 3:22 am

apocatastasis wrote:
Historyb wrote:
A Warning: The teaching of Universalism will not be tolerated here at all.

I was PM'd to come to this site to discuss Re: Universalism, the ear tickler

Here's the exact quote:

[quote author=Brad link=action=profile;u=4418 date=1358099835]
http://apostolicchristian.forumotion.com/t153-universalists-the-ear-ticklers#1633

Hey, I wanted to bring this to your attention. I'd like to hear your thoughts.
[/quote]

If all Brad wanted was to hear your thoughts, then why not just spell it out for him in the PM? It just seems to me that there is more to this.

Anyway, good your here.

Are you sold into the Universalist doctrine?
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