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 Universalists: The ear ticklers

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hornoftruth
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PostSubject: Universalists: The ear ticklers   Sun Jan 13, 2013 11:11 am

http://www.leaderpost.com/entertainment/movie-guide/Raising+Hell+filmmaker+faces+backlash+hometown/7778590/story.html

First Rob Bell comes out with his book aimed at tickling the ears of his readers with the heresy of universal salvation, and now there is a film advancing that same feel-good, wish-washy doctrine. This unscriptural doctrine seems to be getting a lot of promotion lately.

It's bewildering to me how anyone can read the Bible and walk away with the idea that everyone will be saved.

"Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it."
Matt. 7:14

Could Jesus had been any more clear?
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PostSubject: Re: Universalists: The ear ticklers   Sun Jan 13, 2013 1:13 pm

I don't believe all will be saved, but I wouldn't want to call my brothers and sisters who do believe all will be saved heretics. As brothers and sisters in the Lord, we have a bunch of different beliefs, and it is important to admit that we don't have all the answers. I know I sure don't. Just about any passage in the Bible is open to interpretation. While I have not seen a strong case made for universal salvation in the Bible, I'm more than willing to examine the evidence for this belief. I will pray on it and see what He has to tell me about it.
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PostSubject: Re: Universalists: The ear ticklers   Sun Jan 13, 2013 2:00 pm

Fair enough. I don't have all the answers either. But sometimes Biblical texts are plain enough. I'd like to see how the Universalist gets around clear-cut verses like Matt. 7:14.
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PostSubject: Re: Universalists: The ear ticklers   Sun Jan 13, 2013 4:07 pm

Personally , I leave who is saved and who is not , up to God .Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Universalists: The ear ticklers   Sun Jan 13, 2013 4:12 pm

comradeagopian wrote:
Personally , I leave who is saved and who is not , up to God .Very Happy

As do I.

But Scripture is clear enough on the fact that many will never be saved.
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PostSubject: Re: Universalists: The ear ticklers   Sun Jan 13, 2013 5:39 pm

hornoftruth wrote:
http://www.leaderpost.com/entertainment/movie-guide/Raising+Hell+filmmaker+faces+backlash+hometown/7778590/story.html

First Rob Bell comes out with his book aimed at tickling the ears of his readers with the heresy of universal salvation, and now there is a film advancing that same feel-good, wish-washy doctrine. This unscriptural doctrine seems to be getting a lot of promotion lately.

It's bewildering to me how anyone can read the Bible and walk away with the idea that everyone will be saved.

"Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it."
Matt. 7:14

Could Jesus had been any more clear?

One would think that Christ is clear here, but not to the universalist. Universalist save all will go to Heaven, if so why try to live for Christ just party down and do what you want. Universalist make me go confused

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PostSubject: Re: Universalists: The ear ticklers   Sun Jan 13, 2013 5:45 pm

My personal opinion is that MANY people get into this relativity-syndrome. (I don't know the proper words here....maybe just moral relativity or something.)
"A God who loves would not let any of His children perish!"
-Well, no, but some choose to live a life that is contrary to His Will, and end up perishing.

"Oh, but God's Will is for us all to be happy right? And a God who loves us will let us be happy how we choose...that's His Will!! Right? And so those who are contrary to His Will are those who make us feel guilty about what we want to do."

-Um, no. God's "love" is not the same kind of "love" you might be thinking of. "Love" doesn't always make us "happy" while we are on earth...sometimes it takes sacrifice...like avoiding that certain pleasure we want because God said "no".
"WHAT?! A loving God would never tell me "no"!"
-um...maybe we had better start at the beginning....
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PostSubject: Re: Universalists: The ear ticklers   Sun Jan 13, 2013 5:54 pm

Has anyone actually listened to Rob Bell?

The message I got was not that all will be saved, but that we can't say for sure that someone is in hell.

Actually the fact he talks about hell at all is a good indication he's not a universalist.
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PostSubject: Re: Universalists: The ear ticklers   Sun Jan 13, 2013 6:12 pm

BeyondBlessed wrote:
Has anyone actually listened to Rob Bell?

The message I got was not that all will be saved, but that we can't say for sure that someone is in hell.

Actually the fact he talks about hell at all is a good indication he's not a universalist.

I have not listened to him. Really I'm not even sure what a universalist is. I suppose my post is fitting to relativists more than anything...and I only assumed universalism was in synch with relativism. Embarassed
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PostSubject: Re: Universalists: The ear ticklers   Sun Jan 13, 2013 6:35 pm

BB

Quote :
Has anyone actually listened to Rob Bell?

I read his book. The impression I got is that all will be saved. This is not what the Bible teaches.
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PostSubject: Re: Universalists: The ear ticklers   Sun Jan 13, 2013 6:40 pm

There are three main destinies proposed for the fate of the wicked:

Eternal Torment - usually advocated by those emphasizing the JUSTICE of God, and commonly urged by Roman Catholics, Baptists, and others.

Eternal Destruction - usually advocated by those emphasizing the MERCY of God, and commonly preached by the Seventh Day Adventists.

Universal Reconciliation - usually advocated by those emphasizing the LOVE of God, and commonly believed by disorganized groups here and there, although it used to be orthodoxy in the early centuries of Christendom.

Now we all know as Christians that God is both Just, Merciful, and Loving. Given that, one UR pastor whose newsletter I used to read, stated that the Bible appears to support all three positions. How can that be? I think to settle the issue, we need not to throw (possibly out-of-context) scripture verses at one another, but to discern the intent of God, and his intent by His character.

God is the Creator. Being the Creator, He made all that is, and then He stated that it was "very good." Our sins have marred His creation, and made it less than very good, but as Creator, I think it is safe to say that God's intent is to restore the Creation, all of it, not just this Earth, to the status of "very good." Very good - ask yourself if that can include the existence of an eternal Hell and the wicked who exist there. I say it can not, and God forbid.

God is the Sustainer, as we see in the first chapter of the Gospel of John. Given that, would God tolerate the eternal destruction of part of His creation? God's essential nature is to sustain, to keep alive, not to destroy. No, once again, a restored universe which lacks a goodly number of its creatures can not be very good. How can God be "all in all" when "all" are not there alive, but dead, dead, dead?

No, God is the life-giver, the creator, the sustainer, the One who raises us up like children. Jesus both gave us the picture of God as our Father, in the familial sense, and the parable of the prodigal son, who sinned but in time came home to his Father. Are we not all sinners? Are we not all prodigals who have left our Father's house? Are we not ALL destined to bow the knee to Jesus and confess that God is God?

Yes, we will make an account to God. Yes, we will accept punishment for our sins (to some degree). Yes, some of us will be thrown into the Lake of Fire for refinement, for God is a refining fire. No, I do not have all the answers, but Eternal Torment and Destruction MUST be wrong if God is ever to be All in All.
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PostSubject: Re: Universalists: The ear ticklers   Sun Jan 13, 2013 6:46 pm

Lazarus Short


Quote :
Universal Reconciliation - usually advocated by those emphasizing the LOVE of God, and commonly believed by disorganized groups here and there, although it used to be orthodoxy in the early centuries of Christendom.

Do you have any supporting evidence for your claim?

Quote :
I do not have all the answers, but Eternal Torment and Destruction MUST be wrong

You start off by saying you do not have the answer, but then close by giving a default answer. The second half of your statement belies that first half.
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PostSubject: Re: Universalists: The ear ticklers   Sun Jan 13, 2013 7:41 pm

Lazarus Short wrote:
Now we all know as Christians that God is both Just, Merciful, and Loving. Given that, one UR pastor whose newsletter I used to read, stated that the Bible appears to support all three positions. How can that be? I think to settle the issue, we need not to throw (possibly out-of-context) scripture verses at one another, but to discern the intent of God, and his intent by His character.

God is the Creator. Being the Creator, He made all that is, and then He stated that it was "very good." Our sins have marred His creation, and made it less than very good, but as Creator, I think it is safe to say that God's intent is to restore the Creation, all of it, not just this Earth, to the status of "very good." Very good - ask yourself if that can include the existence of an eternal Hell and the wicked who exist there. I say it can not, and God forbid.

I think your observations miss the point that God also gives us free will. I also believe that it allows us, the creation, too much pride on our part...arrogance if you will. For example, in discerning God, in as much as our finite minds are able, we have to recognize that we are but a tiny bit. We are finite...having a beginning...a point at which we were made. Now, put that into perspective of God, Who is infinite...having no beginning...no point at which He was created. Your position, to my understanding of it, assumes that we are the primary purpose of God's existence. But how can this be? How can a finite creation be the main purpose of an infinite Being? So, we first need to understand God in His Divine Nature and understand the relationship between the Persons of God....Father, Son, Holy Spirit. Then we try to understand how we fall into that. We have to figure out why God made us...why make a material creation? Afterall, God is ALL...HE has no need for anything and contains everything within Himself that is sufficient for His own existence. So why create the universe? Well, in simplest of terms, I think Frank Sheed said it well, "...He knew we should like it." (Theology for beginners, p.49) Also, we can't assume that restoration of the universe, of all creation, means that everything that currently exists should be brought back to how it was. It need not exclude the passing away of all that we know of, nor need it exclude an eternal absence from God for those who choose to reject Him.

Quote :
God is the Sustainer, as we see in the first chapter of the Gospel of John. Given that, would God tolerate the eternal destruction of part of His creation?

Would you suppose that God has no right to destroy all that HE created?

Quote :
God's essential nature is to sustain, to keep alive, not to destroy.

First of all, can you prove this? SEcond of all, why must sustaining Life and destroying anything be mutually exclusive?

Quote :
No, once again, a restored universe which lacks a goodly number of its creatures can not be very good.

Is "goodness" dependent upon "goodly number"? I don't think you can show logically that it is.

Quote :
How can God be "all in all" when "all" are not there alive, but dead, dead, dead?

Is God's existence, His "all-in-all", dependent upon His creation? No, God is God by His own Nature. He is "all" because of Who He is, not because of what He creates. You either confuse "what" He is with what He does, or you make God dependent upon what HE does.

Quote :
No, God is the life-giver, the creator, the sustainer, the One who raises us up like children. Jesus both gave us the picture of God as our Father, in the familial sense, and the parable of the prodigal son, who sinned but in time came home to his Father. Are we not all sinners? Are we not all prodigals who have left our Father's house? Are we not ALL destined to bow the knee to Jesus and confess that God is God?

Are we all so humble as the prodigal son who returned and asked his father's pardon and begged to be but a mere servant? Christ tells us that not all choose this humility and will go down into the firey pit, where there is wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Quote :
Yes, we will make an account to God. Yes, we will accept punishment for our sins (to some degree). Yes, some of us will be thrown into the Lake of Fire for refinement, for God is a refining fire. No, I do not have all the answers, but Eternal Torment and Destruction MUST be wrong if God is ever to be All in All.
Logical fallacy: that because God is "all-in-all" that there must not be eternal torment. This presupposes that God's Nature depends fully upon His creation. First you must show that God is dependent upon His creation...and I don't think you can do that. Besides, there is a very big difference between the refining fire (are you referring to the book of Wisdom, or which Scripture passage please?) and the eternal punishment that Christ has explicitly warned us about.
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PostSubject: Re: Universalists: The ear ticklers   Sun Jan 13, 2013 8:00 pm

I don't know whether to think I opened up a can of worms, or whacked the hornet's nest! Obviously, I do not have all the answers, and I will admit that right up front. None of us do, for our understanding is limited by our carnal, three-dimensional, temporal minds. We are all blind in part, this side of the veil.

Please note that I am not a Unitarian Universalist, a New Ager, or anything like that. I am not the most skilled in quoting chapter and verse, and some are going to see that as a failing. However, I see the forest past the trees, or saying it another way, I derive concepts out of the texts of the Bible, and connect the dots. That is my gift.

I am going to have to meditate on everyone's replies and formulate replies.
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PostSubject: Re: Universalists: The ear ticklers   Sun Jan 13, 2013 8:12 pm

Hansc wrote:
Lazarus Short


Quote :
Universal Reconciliation - usually advocated by those emphasizing the LOVE of God, and commonly believed by disorganized groups here and there, although it used to be orthodoxy in the early centuries of Christendom.

Do you have any supporting evidence for your claim?

Quote :
I do not have all the answers, but Eternal Torment and Destruction MUST be wrong

You start off by saying you do not have the answer, but then close by giving a default answer. The second half of your statement belies that first half.

As to the claim, I assume you are referring to UR being orthodoxy in early Christianity. I can only guide you to the writings of Origen and Tertullian, and the controversy between their two schools of thought. I am not an expert on early church history, few are, and we all need to do our own homework.

Maybe the second half of my statement only belies the first in your mind, but I think you may have twisted my words. I said I do not have ALL the answers. None of us do.
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PostSubject: Re: Universalists: The ear ticklers   Sun Jan 13, 2013 8:23 pm

Lazarus

Quote :
Maybe the second half of my statement only belies the first in your mind, but I think you may have twisted my words. I said I do not have ALL the answers.

I don't think I twisted your words at all.

Consider, this:

You claim you don't have the answer.

You offer THREE possible answers.

You then positively eliminate TWO of the possible answers.

This leaves ONLY ONE possible answer.

You claim NOT to have the answer, but also leave the reader with only one possible answer.

3-2=1

You end with only ONE possible answer, which is the opposite of your opening.

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PostSubject: Re: Universalists: The ear ticklers   Sun Jan 13, 2013 9:22 pm

I said TWICE that I didn't have all the answers. I meant that in a general sense.

You insist: "You claim you don't have the answer."

It might be more constructive to have a real discussion about ideas, than just to bandy back and forth about words and phrases.
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PostSubject: Re: Universalists: The ear ticklers   Sun Jan 13, 2013 9:27 pm

ahs states:


I think your observations miss the point that God also gives
us free will. I also believe that it allows us, the creation, too much pride on
our part...arrogance if you will. For example, in discerning God, in as much as
our finite minds are able, we have to recognize that we are but a tiny bit. We
are finite...having a beginning...a point at which we were made. Now, put that
into perspective of God, Who is infinite...having no beginning...no point at
which He was created. Your position, to my understanding of it, assumes that we
are the primary purpose of God's existence. But how can this be? How can a
finite creation be the main purpose of an infinite Being? So, we first need to
understand God in His Divine Nature and understand the relationship between the
Persons of God....Father, Son, Holy Spirit. Then we try to understand how we
fall into that. We have to figure out why God made us...why make a material
creation? Afterall, God is ALL...HE has no need for anything and contains
everything within Himself that is sufficient for His own existence. So why
create the universe? Well, in simplest of terms, I think Frank Sheed said it
well, "...He knew we should like it." (Theology for beginners, p.49)
Also, we can't assume that restoration of the universe, of all creation, means
that everything that currently exists should be brought back to how it was. It
need not exclude the passing away of all that we know of, nor need it exclude
an eternal absence from God for those who choose to reject Him.





Laz replies:


I think you need to explain why/how free will enters into
this question, and further, what pride has to do with it. Universalism means that lots of folks I
don’t like will be in the Kingdom.
That humbles me. Eternal
Torment and/or Destruction, on the other hand tends to make people proud,
thnking they are better in God’s eyes than those poor sinners who did not make
the grade. However, God said,
“…that none should boast.” You
raise a lot of fuzzy philosophical questions, and maybe I did too. In the end, we’re probably going to
have to agree to disagree.






ahs states:


Would you suppose that God has no right to destroy all that
HE created?





Laz replies:


Sure, He has every right – I’m just saying that it is not
His essential nature to destroy, because He is the Creator God.






ahs states:


…why must sustaining Life and destroying anything be
mutually exclusive?





Laz replies:


They are not, for as we all know, God destroyed many
things, even the entire pre-flood world.
Again, I’m just saying that life-sustaining is much closer to God’s
essential character. Destruction
is used only sparingly, for God is not a wanton God, and acts of destruction
are needed only until the problems of sin and the opposition of Satan are
resolved, as they will be in God’s own time.
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PostSubject: Re: Universalists: The ear ticklers   Sun Jan 13, 2013 9:29 pm

ahs states:


Is "goodness" dependent upon "goodly
number"? I don't think you can show logically that it is.





Laz replies:


I think you read too much into “goodness” and
“goodly.” Anyway, show logically
just how God can be all-in-all, when much of that “all” is lost/dead/in
Hell. It makes no sense to me.






ahs states:


Is God's existence, His "all-in-all", dependent
upon His creation? No, God is God by His own Nature. He is "all"
because of Who He is, not because of what He creates. You either confuse
"what" He is with what He does, or you make God dependent upon what
HE does.





Laz replies:


No, being all-in-all is entirely dependent on what God
does, and Him making of it what He wants.
I don’t think I confuse God’s existence and action at all, but you seem
to need to find fault.






ahs states:


Are we all so humble as the prodigal son who returned and
asked his father's pardon and begged to be but a mere servant? Christ tells us
that not all choose this humility and will go down into the firey pit, where there
is wailing and gnashing of teeth.





Laz replies:


In every place in the Bible I have looked, the wailing
and gnashing of teeth happened in a place called “outer darkness,” not the
“firey pit.” It looks more like
being kicked to the gutter than damned to Hell.






ahs states:


Logical fallacy: that because God is "all-in-all"
that there must not be eternal torment. This presupposes that God's Nature
depends fully upon His creation. First you must show that God is dependent upon
His creation...and I don't think you can do that. Besides, there is a very big
difference between the refining fire (are you referring to the book of Wisdom,
or which Scripture passage please?) and the eternal punishment that Christ has
explicitly warned us about.





Laz replies:


Again,
if some/most of humanity is in eternal torment during the all-in-all Kingdom
age, then God can not really be all-in-all, because ALL are not in God’s
presense to be “alled.” How can I
make this any clearer? When God
says “all” He really means All.
No, God’s Nature does NOT depend on His creation – in Him is not even
the shadow of turning, but you need to see beyond our present circumstances,
beyond the veil. God is not goint
to change His nature for us, but He is going to put the imprint of His nature
IN
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PostSubject: Re: Universalists: The ear ticklers   Sun Jan 13, 2013 9:31 pm

us: Christ
in you, the hope of glory. Yes,
God is a refining fire, I have read it many times in the Bible, and the Book of
Wisdom may or may not enter into it.






Now, the most important thing I have to share with you in
this post: you mention “eternal
punishment.” Do yourself a favor,
and see what Hebrew and Greek words have been translated into “eternal.” It
does not mean what you think.
Back then, like zero and infinity, eternal and forever had not yet been
conceived of.
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PostSubject: Re: Universalists: The ear ticklers   Sun Jan 13, 2013 9:35 pm

A Warning: The teaching of Universalism will not be tolerated here at all.

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PostSubject: Re: Universalists: The ear ticklers   Sun Jan 13, 2013 9:50 pm

Lazarus Short wrote:
. Yes, some of us will be thrown into the Lake of Fire for refinement, for God is a refining fire.

Are you serious? Where do you get this idea??
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PostSubject: Re: Universalists: The ear ticklers   Sun Jan 13, 2013 9:52 pm

Historyb wrote:
A Warning: The teaching of Universalism will not be tolerated here at all.

In fairness of discussion, can we not allow Lazarus to present his case? We have nothing to fear and may even talk some sense into him.


Lazarus, how did you find this board, btw? I find it odd that I post this thread and on the same day a Universalist shows up here.
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PostSubject: Re: Universalists: The ear ticklers   Sun Jan 13, 2013 9:54 pm

Lazarus Short wrote:


Back then, like zero and infinity, eternal and forever had not yet been
conceived of.

Are you trying to tell us that the ancients had no conception of time without beginning nor end?



Please, HistoryB, let him try to make his case. This is going to be too easy (and fun).
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PostSubject: Re: Universalists: The ear ticklers   Sun Jan 13, 2013 10:36 pm

He can make his case in this thread alone, no other thread

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