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Being Conformed
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PostSubject: Re: Creation and evolution   Thu Jan 10, 2013 5:26 pm

I believe in micro-evolution and adaptation. I don't necessarily take the bible literally that everything was created in 6 days.
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PostSubject: Re: Creation and evolution   Thu Jan 10, 2013 7:54 pm

ded2daworld wrote:
Also, I believe scripture is clear on a young earth. God wrote with his own finger into the stone tablets with the ten commandments that creation occurred in six days. Jesus said that from the beginning God created them Male and female.
Then one has the additional problem of death, decay, and disease before sin and being pronounced by God as "very good." If death is the result of sin and sin was already in the world before Adam, then the shed blood of Christ is not necessary. My point is real science is observable repeatable and testable. Historical science is speculation and really not scientific at all since the beginning can't be repeated, wasn't observed(except by God that testified to it) and isn't testable.

Not all of the Bible is to be taken literally. And methinks a belief in an old Earth is far more suited to Christian humility than a belief in a 6000 year old Earth. Not many things have inspired more modesty in me than the recognition of the vast past of our planet. Worlds have come and gone. Mountains have been built up and torn down again and again. Tectonic plates have collided and divided again and again. This cannot happen in 6000 years time.


Last edited by hornoftruth on Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:51 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Creation and evolution   Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:23 pm

hornoftruth wrote:
ded2daworld wrote:
Also, I believe scripture is clear on a young earth. God wrote with his own finger into the stone tablets with the ten commandments that creation occurred in six days. Jesus said that from the beginning God created them Male and female.
Then one has the additional problem of death, decay, and disease before sin and being pronounced by God as "very good." If death is the result of sin and sin was already in the world before Adam, then the shed blood of Christ is not necessary. My point is real science is observable repeatable and testable. Historical science is speculation and really not scientific at all since the beginning can't be repeated, wasn't observed(except by God that testified to it) and isn't testable.

Not all of the Bible is to be taken literally. And methinks a belief in an old Earth is far more suited to Christian humility than does a belief in a 6000 year old Earth. Not many things have inspired more modesty in me than the recognition of the vast past of our planet. Worlds have come and gone. Mountains have been built up and torn down again and again. Tectonic plates have collided and divided again and again. This cannot happen in 6000 years time.
So you are saying there are some things God can't do?
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PostSubject: Re: Creation and evolution   Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:23 pm

Titus, do you reject geocentricism? If you do, then the question you asked me could easily be asked of you, could it not?
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PostSubject: Re: Creation and evolution   Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:25 pm

And to answer your question, no, I'm not saying that at all. I'm only saying that the geologic evidence rules out a young Earth.
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PostSubject: Re: Creation and evolution   Thu Jan 10, 2013 11:48 pm

Hornoftruth - So your saying the catastrophy of the flood couldn't be used by God to do those things?
"Mountains have been built up and torn down again and again. Tectonic plates have collided and divided again and again. This cannot happen in 6000 years time."
Actually it could and did take place over just a couple of years. The Bible says God raised up the mountains, leveled the plains, created valleys. So how do you know this "cannot happen in 6,000 years"? Were you there? Are you denying the power of God. Were you aware that Granite (the most abundant rock in our crust) MUST be formed within minutes to have the the particles, appearance, strength, etc. that it does?
Not to mention that if you believe in an old earth, you have the problem of death, disease, decay and destruction BEFORE sin with God looking at it all and saying, "it was VERY good"
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PostSubject: Re: Creation and evolution   Fri Jan 11, 2013 6:06 pm

Quote :
Hornoftruth - So your saying the catastrophy of the flood couldn't be used by God to do those things?

No, that's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that the geological evidence shows that one global flood did not do those things.


I wrote:
"Mountains have been built up and torn down again and again. Tectonic plates have collided and divided again and again. This cannot happen in 6000 years time."

Ded2daworld replied:
Quote :

Actually it could and did take place over just a couple of years.

cyclops

Are you suggesting that mountains were built up and torn down in two years?
Quote :

The Bible says God raised up the mountains, leveled the plains, created valleys.

In two years, eh? What verses did you have in mind?
Quote :

So how do you know this "cannot happen in 6,000 years"? Were you there?

If I come home from work and find that my bedroom window is shattered and that my bureau drawers are opened up and the contents therein out of place, am I to keep from concluding that someone broke into my house simply because I wasn't there at the time? I'm not sure you have thought this through. Didn't you say you studied Historical Geology??
Quote :


Are you denying the power of God.

Of course not.

Quote :
Were you aware that Granite (the most abundant rock in our crust) MUST be formed within minutes to have the the particles, appearance, strength, etc. that it does?

You might want to let the world of geologists in on your little secret.
Quote :

Not to mention that if you believe in an old earth, you have the problem of death, disease, decay and destruction BEFORE sin with God looking at it all and saying, "it was VERY good"

Besides the fact that you have major problems if you want to interpret Genesis 1 and 2 literally, there is the fact that you are reading into the text. Think about it: Did plants die before Adam sinned?
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PostSubject: Re: Creation and evolution   Mon Jan 14, 2013 11:52 am

Plants do not have "the breath of life". Just like all things that were destroyed in the flood had the "breath of life" in them. It would be silly to assume bacteria, sea plants, corals, starfish, etc were all destroyed. "Everything that creepeth upon the land...
But IMO, you did a good job of evading most of ded's questions.
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PostSubject: Re: Creation and evolution   Mon Jan 14, 2013 11:59 am

horn of truth said - "come home from work and find that my bedroom window is shattered and that my bureau drawers are opened up and the contents therein out of place, am I to keep from concluding that someone broke into my house simply because I wasn't there at the time?"

You're assuming you come home to the same house. Peter said the world that then was is no more... besides, even if you came back to the same house would you be able to tell a theif had been in your house if a massive flood had swept through it?
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PostSubject: Re: Creation and evolution   Mon Jan 14, 2013 12:03 pm

Ded2daworld said,
The Bible says God raised up the mountains, leveled the plains, created valleys.

Horn of truth said,
"In two years, eh? What verses did you have in mind?"

I believe ded was referring to the length of the flood waters over the earth.
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PostSubject: Re: Creation and evolution   Mon Jan 14, 2013 12:08 pm

Horn of truth said, "What I'm saying is that the geological evidence shows that one global flood did not do those things."
What geologic evidence did you have in mind? Many 6 day creationists professional geologists seem to think the evidence fits a flood model rather well
a LOT better than uniformitarianism. Many secular geologists now believe in a series of catastrophic floods, but they don't want these flood waters in one for fear of peer pressure (as it always is when a scientist nowadays concludes the Bible was right)
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PostSubject: Re: Creation and evolution   Mon Jan 14, 2013 5:25 pm

JeffPS,

Quote :
But IMO, you did a good job of evading most of ded's questions.



I'm rather surprised you feel that way. It seemd to me that it was ded who was doing the evading. I tried to focus the discussion by discussing polystrate fossils, and ded evaded my points. But seing that you are now here, I'd be glad to continue the discussion with you. But no rabbit trails, please. Let's have a careful and focused discussion. OK by you?
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PostSubject: Re: Creation and evolution   Mon Jan 14, 2013 5:26 pm

JeffPS wrote:
horn of truth said - "come home from work and find that my bedroom window is shattered and that my bureau drawers are opened up and the contents therein out of place, am I to keep from concluding that someone broke into my house simply because I wasn't there at the time?"

You're assuming you come home to the same house. Peter said the world that then was is no more... besides, even if you came back to the same house would you be able to tell a theif had been in your house if a massive flood had swept through it?

Why are you avading the point of my analogy? Care to try to address it?

And are you suggesting that we shouldn't expect to see geologial evidence for a global flood that supposedly occured several thousand years ago?
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PostSubject: Re: Creation and evolution   Mon Jan 14, 2013 5:27 pm

JeffPS wrote:
Ded2daworld said,
The Bible says God raised up the mountains, leveled the plains, created valleys.

Horn of truth said,
"In two years, eh? What verses did you have in mind?"

I believe ded was referring to the length of the flood waters over the earth.

Allow me to summarize.

I pointed out that mountains cannot be built up and eroded away in 6000 years, and ded responded with the bizarre claim that it can and did happen in 2 years!
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PostSubject: Re: Creation and evolution   Mon Jan 14, 2013 5:32 pm

Jeff,

Quote :
What geologic evidence did you have in mind?



Let's start with the Grand Canyon strata, shall we?

Quote :
Many 6 day creationists professional geologists seem to think the evidence fits a flood model rather well
a LOT better than uniformitarianism.

I am aware of the silly claims made by the YECs.

Quote :
Many secular geologists now believe in a series of catastrophic floods

What is secular geology, pray tell?

The fact that catastrophic floods occur is hardly new to geologists!

Quote :
, but they don't want these flood waters in one for fear of peer pressure (as it always is when a scientist nowadays concludes the Bible was right)

Oh really? You presume to know that the world of professional geologists are peer pressured into denying the evidence? Hilarious. I'm not sure a discussion with you will be worth my time, but I'll see how you respond and take it from there.
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PostSubject: Re: Creation and evolution   Mon Jan 14, 2013 9:55 pm

You're right. I'm wrong. Feel better? sunny
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PostSubject: Re: Creation and evolution   Mon Jan 14, 2013 10:09 pm

Why bother to post at all if you're just going to post something like that? Rolling Eyes
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PostSubject: Re: Creation and evolution   Tue Jan 15, 2013 9:24 am

I apologise. I meant to say, "You and secular men are right and the Bible is wrong." I'm sorry you don't believe that secular scientists have an agenda to keep God out of the picture since by definition they eliminate the supernatural.
Did you want rebuttal? OK but I'm done after this.
Horn of Truth said, "
Quote :
Why are you evading the point of my analogy? Care to try to address it?
And are you suggesting that we shouldn't expect to see geologial evidence for a global flood that supposedly occured several thousand years ago?"
Answer. I did address it. Since the premise of everything staying the same(other than the thief) is totally different than a flood roaring through the house.
We do see geological evidence of a global flood in the form of billions of fossils scattered all over the world even up to the highest mountain peaks. More than 90% of all fossils are a direct result of the flood.

Hornoftruth wrote:
Quote :
I pointed out that mountains cannot be built up and eroded away in 6000 years, and ded responded with the bizarre claim that it can and did happen in 2 years!
Ans. I don't think he said that mountains were eroded away. The 2 year period was the time during the flood and immediately after which the bizarre claim is in the Bible that receding waters formed rivers and valleys and God "lifted up" the land to form mountains. Besides, when you are saying something can't happen with the earth, you're saying the omnipotent God can't do what he wants with the earth.

Hornoftruth wrote:I am aware of the silly claims made by the YECs.
Ans. This was all you could offer as evidence? Calling the idea that what the Bible said is silly? You asked about the grand canyon. Secular geologists say it was created by a little bit of water over a long, long time. (Flowing uphill by the way) while YE geologists say it was a whole lot of water in a very short time.

Hornoftruth wrote:
Quote :
What is secular geology, pray tell?
The fact that catastrophic floods occur is hardly new to geologists!
Ans. Appently you have trouble with reading comprehension. I didn't say secular Geology but secular geologists. Geology cannot be secular but a geologist can... and geologists of course believe in catastrophic floods of the local variety but not on a global scale at once. Most geologists today maintain uniformitarianism which says that geologic conditions have basically remain unchanged since the earth came into existence...in other words no global flood as Peter claimed in his epistle and Jesus mentioned when talking about as it was in the days of Noah. Can't trust what Jesus said even though He should know whether there was a flood or not.

Hornoftruth wrote:
Quote :
Oh really? You presume to know that the world of professional geologists are peer pressured into denying the evidence? Hilarious. I'm not sure a discussion with you will be worth my time, but I'll see how you respond and take it from there
Ans. I'm merely repeating what my athiest History professor told the class. Watch the movie "No intelligence allowed" and look up Fraudulent science papers and research. It's all about the grant money.
...and by the way, this is the end of my discussion with you because you don't want to waste your time finding out the Bible is accurate. Just keep believing sinful man's word over God's word.
If you honestly want to wise up about science, go to scienceagainstevolution.info



[url=scienceagainstevolution.info]scienceagainstevolution.info[/url][url=scienceagainstevolution.info]scienceagainstevolution.info[/url]
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PostSubject: Re: Creation and evolution   Tue Jan 15, 2013 5:16 pm

Thanks for the chat.
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PostSubject: Re: Creation and evolution   Sat May 04, 2013 10:07 pm

It is fortunate and proper that the Roman Catholic Church neither advocates nor denies evolution as the way God produced life's diversity. The Church only condemns those ideologies that deny God's place in creation.

Hence Cardinal Ratzinger's comments:
While there is little consensus among scientists about how the origin of
this first microscopic life is to be explained, there is general
agreement among them that the first organism dwelt on this planet about
3.5-4 billion years ago. Since it has been demonstrated that all living
organisms on earth are genetically related, it is virtually certain that
all living organisms have descended from this first organism.
Converging evidence from many studies in the physical and biological
sciences furnishes mounting support for some theory of evolution to
account for the development and diversification of life on earth, while
controversy continues over the pace and mechanisms of evolution. While
the story of human origins is complex and subject to revision, physical
anthropology and molecular biology combine to make a convincing case for
the origin of the human species in Africa about 150,000 years ago in a
humanoid population of common genetic lineage.

Communion and Stewardship:
Human Persons
Created in the Image of God


The July 2004 Vatican Statement on Creation
and Evolution
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