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Kingfisher
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PostSubject: Creation and evolution   Wed Jan 02, 2013 4:20 pm

I had an interesting conversation with a friend yesterday. He is a scientist and claims to be a Christian. I have always respected his opinions, but this one seems a little weird. We were have a creation vs. evolution debate. I, of course, claimed evolution is a hoax, but he said that both evolution AND creation can be true. He said that white people were created, and black people evolved. He used some pretty convincing arguments, like facial bone structures, saying that white people look more like Jesus, and black people look more similar to a primate. He also noted group behaviors. On the surface it sounds really racist and I'm strongly against evolution and science, but does my friend have a point?
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PostSubject: Re: Creation and evolution   Wed Jan 02, 2013 5:45 pm

Kingfisher wrote:

On the surface it sounds really racist and I'm strongly against evolution and science, but does my friend have a point?

No.

There's a case to be made for creation by evolution, but anyone that gets too specific beyond the basics is setting themselves and their followers up for a crisis of faith as science improves. I believe humans were created separate from other animals and organisms, and that's all I'm willing to defend.

The same genomic DNA is found in everyone throughout the world, whether they're Black, White, Asian, or Hispanic. When crime-scene comes out to investigate a crime they cannot tell if a suspect is White or Black from a single DNA sample, but they can verify that it's human.

There are plenty of theories why we have different skin colors. One is the need for vitamin D (lighter skin absorbs more). Women need more of this during pregnancy and women tend to have lighter-skin than males in all races. This theory says where the sun is the weakest the lighter the skin will be over time.
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hornoftruth
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PostSubject: Re: Creation and evolution   Wed Jan 02, 2013 5:54 pm

I do not believe evolution has or does or will occur, but my faith would not be shaken if I found out that evolution is true. God is Creator, whether or not evolution is real.
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PostSubject: Re: Creation and evolution   Wed Jan 02, 2013 7:24 pm

Kingfisher wrote:
I had an interesting conversation with a friend yesterday. He is a scientist and claims to be a Christian. I have always respected his opinions, but this one seems a little weird. We were have a creation vs. evolution debate. I, of course, claimed evolution is a hoax, but he said that both evolution AND creation can be true. He said that white people were created, and black people evolved. He used some pretty convincing arguments, like facial bone structures, saying that white people look more like Jesus, and black people look more similar to a primate. He also noted group behaviors. On the surface it sounds really racist and I'm strongly against evolution and science, but does my friend have a point?

If your friend is a scientist and believes what he told you, he should quit his job. There is nothing scientific or Biblical in his claims.
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PostSubject: Re: Creation and evolution   Wed Jan 02, 2013 7:47 pm

BeyondBlessed wrote:
There are plenty of theories why we have different skin colors. One is the need for vitamin D (lighter skin absorbs more). Women need more of this during pregnancy and women tend to have lighter-skin than males in all races. This theory says where the sun is the weakest the lighter the skin will be over time.
Devil's advocate here: this latter theory is essentially evolution, and people use that thought to "prove" evolution.
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PostSubject: Re: Creation and evolution   Wed Jan 02, 2013 8:53 pm

Kingfisher wrote:
I had an interesting conversation with a friend yesterday. He is a scientist and claims to be a Christian. I have always respected his opinions, but this one seems a little weird. We were have a creation vs. evolution debate. I, of course, claimed evolution is a hoax, but he said that both evolution AND creation can be true. He said that white people were created, and black people evolved. He used some pretty convincing arguments, like facial bone structures, saying that white people look more like Jesus, and black people look more similar to a primate. He also noted group behaviors. On the surface it sounds really racist and I'm strongly against evolution and science, but does my friend have a point?

There is no evidence for this. How do you thing Jesus looked. There are no statues or drawings of what Jesus actually looked like. So how does he know His facial bone structures?

I have heard an argument that Adam was black and as he had children they got lighter and lighter and more and more distorted. When you use a copy machine recopying a document over and over it gets more and more distorted.

Jesus was not as fair skinned as today's white people. He had olive skin and likely woolly hair.

Sorry Kingfisher... I believe this guy is wrong.
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PostSubject: Re: Creation and evolution   Wed Jan 02, 2013 10:30 pm

[quote="HisDaughter"][
When you use a copy machine recopying a document over and over it gets more and more distorted.
[quote]

you need a good modern Xerox printer/copier and they don't do that...... Actually I've seen fifth generation copies that look better than the originals.......
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PostSubject: Re: Creation and evolution   Wed Jan 02, 2013 11:29 pm

Benjie wrote:
Devil's advocate here: this latter theory is essentially evolution, and people use that thought to "prove" evolution.

Yes, but evolution caused by environmental factors is nothing new. Even in the last hundred years we are taller, children start puberty earlier, etc. We can see genes "sweeping," meaning favorable genes are always increasingly common and the less favorable ones are getting more rare. In our recorded history, we know at one time most adults were not able to digest milk. Children would develop lactose intolerance after they stopped nursing, but having isolated the gene responsible for this digestive capability we believe people with this gene were better nourished, lived longer and had more children increasing the gene's popularity. Evolution doesn't just mean people are changing at random, but over time through selective mating the genome changes. Its not a stretch to me to believe people with dark skin who migrated to areas with less UV exposure were not as healthy for the lack of vitamin D they absorbed without modern, balanced diets. The fair-skinned lived longer and had more children and there you have it. How many different breeds of dogs do we have? That was the result of conscious, selective mating on the part of humans but it shows how fast things can change.


Last edited by BeyondBlessed on Wed Jan 02, 2013 11:31 pm; edited 3 times in total (Reason for editing : wrong quote selected)
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PostSubject: Re: Creation and evolution   Thu Jan 03, 2013 4:04 am

Kingfisher wrote:
I had an interesting conversation with a friend yesterday. He is a scientist and claims to be a Christian. I have always respected his opinions, but this one seems a little weird. We were have a creation vs. evolution debate. I, of course, claimed evolution is a hoax, but he said that both evolution AND creation can be true. He said that white people were created, and black people evolved. He used some pretty convincing arguments, like facial bone structures, saying that white people look more like Jesus, and black people look more similar to a primate. He also noted group behaviors. On the surface it sounds really racist and I'm strongly against evolution and science, but does my friend have a point?
Do you think he has a point? How does what he shared jive with your beliefs?

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PostSubject: Re: Creation and evolution   Thu Jan 03, 2013 6:28 am

BeyondBlessed wrote:
Benjie wrote:
Devil's advocate here: this latter theory is essentially evolution, and people use that thought to "prove" evolution.

Yes, but evolution caused by environmental factors is nothing new. Even in the last hundred years we are taller, children start puberty earlier, etc. We can see genes "sweeping," meaning favorable genes are always increasingly common and the less favorable ones are getting more rare. In our recorded history, we know at one time most adults were not able to digest milk. Children would develop lactose intolerance after they stopped nursing, but having isolated the gene responsible for this digestive capability we believe people with this gene were better nourished, lived longer and had more children increasing the gene's popularity. Evolution doesn't just mean people are changing at random, but over time through selective mating the genome changes. Its not a stretch to me to believe people with dark skin who migrated to areas with less UV exposure were not as healthy for the lack of vitamin D they absorbed without modern, balanced diets. The fair-skinned lived longer and had more children and there you have it. How many different breeds of dogs do we have? That was the result of conscious, selective mating on the part of humans but it shows how fast things can change.
Just so you know, I agree with you, and I'm not arguing with you.

The evolution crowd likes to use that as 'proof' that evolution is true. They paint it with such a broad brush that there is no way it can be dis-proven.
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PostSubject: Re: Creation and evolution   Thu Jan 03, 2013 6:11 pm

Benjie wrote:
Just so you know, I agree with you, and I'm not arguing with you.

Now I'm scared.

There are people on the conservative Christian side that will argue with microevolution. Most of the time I stay away, but I think they're damaging the Christian faith with most of the general population. I'm not a scientist or clergy. All I have is some college biology and to them that's one big conspiracy.
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Kingfisher
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PostSubject: Re: Creation and evolution   Fri Jan 04, 2013 7:16 pm

Thanks for the responses everyone. They back up what I said to my friend. I showed him this thread and he seemed to blow it off, oh well, guess he made his mind up. He did say that BeyondBlessed's example of UV sunlight shows adaptation not evolution. He also said there are some genetic markers or tags that can show a person's race (need some proof of this if you ask me).

BeyondBlessed:
You did some college Bio? Yikes, how was it? I have this mental image of self-important professors trying to disprove the Bible. Hopefully I'm wrong and there's still hope for college-educated youths.
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PostSubject: Re: Creation and evolution   Fri Jan 04, 2013 8:58 pm

Quote :
He did say that BeyondBlessed's example of UV sunlight shows adaptation not evolution.

Good catch, it is common to show examples of adaptation, and believe that they are examples of evolution. They are not.
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PostSubject: Re: Creation and evolution   Tue Jan 08, 2013 5:57 pm

Hi all. I'm new. We are all descended from Adam and Adam had all the color pigmentations in his DNA. From what I read of the posts here, some of you will be surprised to know that the Bible is correct about our origins and that evolution is not scientific. As a former biology teacher and a former evolutionist, I can tell you that. If you would like to check out the fact that the Bible is true and evolution is false, I recommend 2 great websites. One is religious and the other is pure science (layman level).
AnswersinGenesis.com and scienceagainstevolution.info
[url=AnswersinGenesis.com ]AnswersinGenesis.com [/url][url= scienceagainstevolution.info] scienceagainstevolution.info[/url]
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PostSubject: Re: Creation and evolution   Tue Jan 08, 2013 8:02 pm

Kingfisher wrote:

BeyondBlessed:
You did some college Bio? Yikes, how was it? I have this mental image of self-important professors trying to disprove the Bible. Hopefully I'm wrong and there's still hope for college-educated youths.

I didn't get that impression, but I also believe in an old earth so I don't take it as an attack on Christianity when evolution is assumed.
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PostSubject: Re: Creation and evolution   Tue Jan 08, 2013 9:14 pm

Hello and welcome.

While I don't subscribe to evolution, I'm hardly an expert in the relevant field and therefore stay out of the creation-evolution debate. That said, I have found answersingenesis to be a most unreliable source of information. For example, their arguments for a young earth and against conventional geology are quite weak and almost seem disingenuous.

ded2daworld wrote:
Hi all. I'm new. We are all descended from Adam and Adam had all the color pigmentations in his DNA. From what I read of the posts here, some of you will be surprised to know that the Bible is correct about our origins and that evolution is not scientific. As a former biology teacher and a former evolutionist, I can tell you that. If you would like to check out the fact that the Bible is true and evolution is false, I recommend 2 great websites. One is religious and the other is pure science (layman level).
AnswersinGenesis.com and scienceagainstevolution.info
[url=AnswersinGenesis.com ]AnswersinGenesis.com [/url][url= scienceagainstevolution.info] scienceagainstevolution.info[/url]
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PostSubject: Re: Creation and evolution   Wed Jan 09, 2013 8:38 am

Strange. I had 2 college courses in Historical Geology and my atheist professor confirmed that "it's not the facts that are in dispute - but the interpretation of the facts." Polystrate fossils, Granite, radiohalos, all point to a young earth but if one is predisposed to an old earth world view these examples are ignored and dubbed "unexplainable". I also tend to believe an eyewitness account over speculation from people/scientists that disallow anything supernatural - except the miracles of evolution. I say that tongue in cheek because evolution requires far more "miracles" than Creation.
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PostSubject: Re: Creation and evolution   Wed Jan 09, 2013 8:47 am

Also, I believe scripture is clear on a young earth. God wrote with his own finger into the stone tablets with the ten commandments that creation occurred in six days. Jesus said that from the beginning God created them Male and female.
Then one has the additional problem of death, decay, and disease before sin and being pronounced by God as "very good." If death is the result of sin and sin was already in the world before Adam, then the shed blood of Christ is not necessary. My point is real science is observable repeatable and testable. Historical science is speculation and really not scientific at all since the beginning can't be repeated, wasn't observed(except by God that testified to it) and isn't testable.
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PostSubject: Re: Creation and evolution   Wed Jan 09, 2013 5:42 pm

Ded2daworld,

I wouldn't mind discussing this with you. Why don't we start with polystrate fossils? Please give an example of a polystrate fossil which you think point to a young earth.

ded2daworld wrote:
Strange. I had 2 college courses in Historical Geology and my atheist professor confirmed that "it's not the facts that are in dispute - but the interpretation of the facts." Polystrate fossils, Granite, radiohalos, all point to a young earth but if one is predisposed to an old earth world view these examples are ignored and dubbed "unexplainable". I also tend to believe an eyewitness account over speculation from people/scientists that disallow anything supernatural - except the miracles of evolution. I say that tongue in cheek because evolution requires far more "miracles" than Creation.
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PostSubject: Re: Creation and evolution   Wed Jan 09, 2013 6:18 pm

As you know, a polystrate fossil is one that is found in many strata or layers of rock. Evolutionists claim these strata each took millions of years to form. They cannot explain a fossilized tree limb that goes through several layers without admitting that the layers had to have been buried rapidly as they would have been in the flood. They also cannot expain the lack of meteor strikes on each layer but, that is another topic.
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Kingfisher
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PostSubject: Re: Creation and evolution   Wed Jan 09, 2013 6:58 pm

I don't know how horn is qualified, but 2 courses in geology doesn't really make someone an expert, or really teach them more than someone can read on the internet. I'm still up in the air on young vs. old earth, but believe that whenever science and scripture collide, scripture wins out 100% of the time. If nothing else because it never changes, and remains a solid foundation, but building a life or world view on science is like building a skyscraper on quicksand. The ground is alway shifting beneath, and it ends up sucking you down to the pits of hell.
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PostSubject: Re: Creation and evolution   Wed Jan 09, 2013 7:14 pm

I didn't say I was qualified. I said what my atheistic professor said and I believe he was qualified.
No my life is built on the scripture and on Christ the solid rock I stand, all other ground is sinking sand.
I am just pleased to know that REAL science confirms the Bible. I do have a bachelors and taught Biology - though that doesn't qualify me either except that I know ther scientific method and know that evolution is impossible.
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PostSubject: Re: Creation and evolution   Wed Jan 09, 2013 8:38 pm

ded2daworld,
Quote :


As you know, a polystrate fossil is one that is found in many strata or layers of rock. Evolutionists claim these strata each took millions of years to form.
A couple points to be made here.

First of all, stratigraphy does not concern evolution. Many Creationists accept the evidence for an old earth, but reject evolutionary theory nonetheless. Secondly, the amount of time it takes for a stratum to be deposited varies enormously.

I'd like you to present a specific example of a polystrate fossil that you think points to a young earth, and then we will dig deeper and discuss it.
Quote :

They cannot explain a fossilized tree limb that goes through several layers without admitting that the layers had to have been buried rapidly as they would have been in the flood.

Please take the time to read this brief article on the subject and tell me what you think.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

From the article:

Article wrote:
Are "polystrate" fossils a problem for conventional geology?



Well, they were not a problem to explain in the 19th century, and are
still not a problem now.
John William Dawson (1868) described a
classic Carboniferous-age locality at Joggins, Nova Scotia, where
there are upright giant lycopod trees up to a few metres tall
preserved mainly in river-deposited sandstones. These trees have
extensive root systems with rootlets that penetrate into the
underlying sediment, which is either a coal seam (i.e. compressed
plant material), or an intensely-rooted sandstone or mudstone (i.e. a
soil horizon). Dawson considered and rejected anything but an in
situ
formation for these fossils, and his interpretation is
closely similar to current interpretations of sediments deposited on
river floodplains. An interesting feature of these examples is the
presence of vertebrate fossils (mostly small reptiles) within the
infilling of the stumps.


The reason I am using Dawson rather than a more recent reference is to
emphasize that many supposed "problems" with conventional geology were
solved more than 100 years ago using very basic principles. The
people suggesting these "problems" exist are so out of date
that even 19th-century literature refutes their presentations.




Quote :

They also cannot expain the lack of meteor strikes on each layer but, that is another topic.

I'd like to hear what you have to say about this, but perhaps it would be good to focus on polystrate fossils for now.
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PostSubject: Re: Creation and evolution   Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:58 am

Talk origins is a very biased website and anti-creationists (just to let you know where their worldview is coming from.
They are good at "seeming" to resolve a problem without actually doing so.
The article says nothing about strata, or how long the fossilation took place (creationists believe in rapid fossilation which is what appaently happened here)
If there is strata, what evidence is there of each layer being millins of years as evolutionists normally claim?
and of course this is similar to sediment deposits on river FLOOD plains a flood model predicts this.
and of course, the presence of small vertebrate fossils within the infilling of the stumps is exactly what a flood model with rapid fossilization would predict.
I guess I'm stupid but I've read many "easily explained" problems before and each time (I guess it depends on one's bias) it seems like the evidence (to me)supports the flood or creation model rather than refute it. Evolutionists always appeal to age. So the polystrate fossils were "explained" by "very basic principles" about 150 years ago and no recent examples are offered. I didn't see an explanation of how a fossil is formed in different layers covering huge(more than 10,000-1,000,000 years) periods of time.
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PostSubject: Re: Creation and evolution   Thu Jan 10, 2013 5:25 pm

ded2daworld,
Quote :

Talk origins is a very biased website and anti-creationists (just to let you know where their worldview is coming from.

We all have our biases, no? Yet I found the article to be objective. Did you find anything in the article to the contrary?
Quote :

The article says nothing about strata, or how long the fossilation took place (creationists believe in rapid fossilation which is what appaently happened here)

Actually, the article agrees that rapid sedimentation is necessary for the formation of polystrate fossils. But this is hardly a problem for conventional geology, and it certainly does not constitute evidence for a young earth.
Quote :

If there is strata, what evidence is there of each layer being millins of years as evolutionists normally claim?

No geologist would claim that the strata in which polystrate trees are found were laid down over the course of millions of years.
Quote :


and of course this is similar to sediment deposits on river FLOOD plains a flood model predicts this.

River flooding is hardly unusual, and most certainly does not indicate a global flood, let alone a young earth.
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